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Georgian Interior Minister: Russia Pushing Abkhazia
Georgia demanded an apology from Russia yesterday and compensation for damages from the Georgian unpiloted aircraft shot down over Abkhazia on April 20. Georgian called that an act of aggression. Georgian Interior Minister Vano Merabishvili, who is considered a key figure in the current government, comments in an exclusive interview with Kommersant special correspondent Olga Allenova on the incident with the drone, talks about the future of Georgian-Russian relations, about the conflict between the Georgian government and the opposition and about whether there will be war in Abkhazia.
The Georgian opposition is protesting again. Will the Interior Ministry take measures?
What can it do? The reforms we have carried out have been so painful that people still can’t get over it. We turned everything upside down as we dealt with corruption. When I say that there is not a single kidnapping in Georgia, not a single gangland boss, almost o stolen cars, it means a lot. Since 2003, the federal budget has increased by 14 times. That money had been in someone’s pocket. We got to it and put it in the budget. That means many people lost money. Of course, they will fight the government. That is why society is tense.
But we won in the elections. There were two reasons for that: we campaigned well, and people understood that the opposition isn’t good for anything. What did they offer people? Nothing. The only party that offered anything at all was our party. In five years, we raised pensions four- or fivefold. That’s practical. The opposition had no program and lost so resoundingly that it has become marginal.
Marginal how?
They think that, if we made a revolution, they can too. But they are not the equal of the task. They don’t see that they have no standing. They based everything on their own opinion of themselves.
So you do not expect the situation to become tenser?
I’m not ruling anything out. They are becoming marginal. They lost 100,000 votes in Tbilisi in three months. [United opposition leader] Gachicheladze received 220,000 votes in Tbilisi in January, and just 100,000 now.
How many people did you fire during the reform of the police?
More than 35,000.
Are they at the opposition meetings now?
Possibly. There are 28,000 people today in the Interior Ministry, which includes the Ministry of Emergency Situations, Ministry of State Security, the border guards and gas pipeline guards. There were more than 80,000. That was a painful reform. But it was necessary. And I am proud to say that the Georgian policeman today receives a larger salary than the Russian policeman.
How much is that?
Between $600 and $4000, depending on length of service and rank. But it is not just a matter of salary. I am proud that the Georgian police do not take bribes. Not one person in Georgia will tell you that he bribed a traffic cop. We simply sent all the police home one day. And brought new people into the ministry. We raised salaries and discipline. The Georgian police have a rating of 70 percent. That is equal to a Western European country. Six years ago, that rating was 3-4 percent.
Can the event of November 7 repeat themselves in Georgia?
It’s hard for me to say.
You led the special operation then. Do you regret what happened?
What happened?
The suppression of a protest action by force.
That’s normal. Is there a state in the world where the police do not use force when the situation gets out of control? Our police had no practice. But the operation was carried out correctly and professionally – not one single death or injury. When we came to power, the police didn’t have arms or clubs. Now we are well armed. We used modern methods to disperse demonstrations, including acoustic techniques. We used gas. Of course, it was a very difficult decision, because of what happened in Tbilisi on April 9, 1989. But we acted professionally. When we buy gas, we test it well. And we change it every year.
What, according to your data, happened in Gali District during the elections? Was the bus bombed or shot at?
Very often some sort of measures are taken against people who cross the administrative border and take part in voting in Zugdidi District. After the number of so-called peacekeepers was increased in Abkhazia and Putin made his plan to recognize Abkhazia public, someone wanted to show the Georgians who live in the Gali District of Abkhazia that they are unprotected. They came in a bus to vote. From the bullet holes it was clear that the main goal was not to kill people. First they shot at the bus with automatic weapons, then, after the people dispersed, they started firing grenades at it. There were injuries, but it is clear to us that it was more an act of intimidation.
Where did they fire from?
There is no distinct border there, so it is a very complex situation.
Do don’t think it’s possible that it was bandits or partisans?
What difference does it make? The fact remains. That territory is uncontrolled. So many times we have proposed the formation of a mixed police force to international organizations and to the Abkhazian side. Ninety percent of stolen cars go to Gali! But I am sure that firing on the bus was not the work of bandits. I am sure it was an act of intimidation. They simply want Georgians living in Gali to be afraid and subordinate.
Can what is happening between Abkhazians and Georgians be called war?
The steps taken by Putin in the final days of his presidency are a declaration of the occupation of two parts of the territory of Georgia.
According to the Abkhazian side, seven unpiloted Georgian aircraft were shot down over Abkhazia. Georgian authorities confirm only two. Why the discrepancy?
It’s hard for me to say where those five drones came from. It seems to me that the Abkhazians talks about them to raise people’s spirits. I also think that, after our first unpiloted aircraft was shot down by a Russian MiG, Russian authorities made the decision to show that it was shot down by Abkhazian air defense the next time. The Russians understood that they had made a big mistake when their aircraft openly shot down a Georgian plane over Georgian territory. But I am sure that the second aircraft was shot down by Russian air defense as well. All the other aircraft shot down were fictitious, to smooth over the effect of the first attack.
We have a video recording of the attack, where a Russian MiG took off from a Russian military base. Our experts say that it was a MiG, although others say Su. It’s not important, because the Abkhazians don’t have such serious airplanes.
But Abkhazian authorities have said repeatedly that they bought the planes and equipment.
They are buying a Buk-1M. Bagapsh said so. It is a ballistic missile complex with a medium radius of action. It covers 35 km. of airspace. Only 25 states in the world have air defense of that class. That’s what kind of Buk the Abkhazians “bought.” It is located in Gali District now.
You don’t have that kind of weapon?
There are even more serious weapons. We have possibilities for that.
But the Abkhazians have money too.
You talk about Abkhazia as though it were a separate state! Abkhazia is an officially unrecognized territory, an enclave, where, as the world community has acknowledged, an ethnic cleansing has occurred. If they do have money, it is exclusively from Russia. Russia gives them money and arms so they can fight against us. One Buk system costs a minimum of $150 million. The question arises for us: Why do the Abkhazians have a weapon like that?
That is, why do they have such an expensive weapon?
There’s something more important than the price. No one can buy that weapon on the market. It is a very serious means of air defense. You remember when Ukrainian air defense shot down an Israeli plane? That was a Buk.
So it can shoot down your airplanes too?
They can shoot down everything at a height of 25 km. Our passenger planes fly at a height of 10 km., and military planes at 10-15 km. Abkhazia already has more weapons than Syria.
Does that mean you think Abkhazia is preparing for war?
It makes sense. More accurately, Abkhazia isn’t preparing for war, but the Russians are forcing it to prepare.
Why?
If there is a war, if there is just one shot fired from the side of Georgia, Georgia will not become a member of NATO.
Do you consider that an even trade?
It’s real! If there is military action there, clearly that will not take Georgia in NATO. And the Russians know that very well. It would be impossible for the European countries that are NATO members to reach a consensus to take a state in which they are shooting into its ranks. Al the problems between Georgia and Russia began after Georgia’s entry into NASTO became realistic. For Russia, that is a very serious problem. If Georgia becomes a NATO member, it will be a real channel to transport energy resources bypassing Russia. And I think military action in Abkhazia is part of Russia’s plans to stop Georgia’s entry into NATO. And it is a problem for us that Russia has such plans.
Are you afraid the Kremlin will have its way?
Six or eight years ago, the Kremlin wrote a plan for stopping Georgia from entering NATO. I know they planned the embargo of Georgian wines. And everything is going according to that plan. I know the person who organized it. It is Kholmogorov, who was a department head in the FSB. They thought it would destroy the Georgian economy. They thought there is a lot of Georgian wine in Russia. Kholmogorov told me in Vienna that they shut us out of more than $1 billion in exports. When I answered that Georgian wine exports to Russia were only $65 million, he was very surprised. They probably counted every distillery around their dachas in Balashikha [outside Moscow] that bottles Georgian and French wines. But nothing terrible happened. Our economic growth totaled 12.5 percent. No other state that doesn’t have oil has had that kind of growth. And we will develop, in spite of it all.
Interviewed by Olga Allenova
All the Article in Russian as of May 28, 2008
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