"The information that was written in the Russian press could not have come either from Alexander Litvinenko or from me, which means that there was a third party that spoke for us," said Ahmed Zakayev, shown here in London in 2007.
Photo: Valery Melnikov
| Other Photos |
 |
|
 |
Deposition of Ahmed Zakayev Concerning the Litvinenko Affair
// A Transcript of the Interview with Investigators in London
Kommersant has obtained a transcript of an interview given by Chechen representative Ahmed Zakayev, who lives in self-imposed exile in London, at the end of March to representatives of the Russian General Prosecutor's Office who are investigating the murder of former FSB officer Alexander Litvinenko. The transcript is presented here unedited and uncorrected, exactly as it was recorded.
Cassette No. 1
Detective Rose (R): Today is March 30, 2007, and the time is now 12:57. This interview is being recorded on tape; my name is Detective Rose, I work in the counterterrorism department. Detective Wells is also from that department. Across from me is – introduce yourself, please.
Ahmed Zakayev (AZ): Ahmed Zakayev.
R: Thank you. In addition, a translator is present, Mr. Faik, and a third person – please, if you would be so kind, first and last name?
Andrei Maiorov (AM): Andrei Maiorov, deputy head of the department of high-profile cases in the Russian General Prosecutor's Office.
R: The goal of today's meeting is to ask you, Ahmed, several questions regarding the death of Alexander Litvinenko. We are asking these questions on the behalf of and according to the instructions of the Russian authorities, who are carrying out their own investigation into this matter. Before we begin, we need to talk about a few things. First, that you came here of your own volition. If possible, confirm that for me.
AZ: I absolutely voluntarily expressed the desire to cooperate with the investigation into the murder of my friend Alexander Litvinenko.
R: You are free to leave at any time. I want to ask you some questions, if you agree to answer them. I will ask questions, naturally, that the Russian side would like answers to. These questions concern several individuals. Naturally, if you tell me that you do not know an individual, then there is no point in asking further questions on that topic. I will go through these questions, and I request that our Russian guest, if possible, not interrupt until we have finished this conversation. I will turn off the tape, and, if there are questions, then we will begin recording a second [tape] with your questions.
AZ: Yes, I understand.
R: So that it is clear to you, Mr. Zakayev, you are not here under arrest or detention. As we said, you are here of your own free will and as a witness. Ahmed, the first question concerns you personally and a little bit about your own history: where do you work and in what position?
AZ: I, Ahmed Zakayev, am the foreign affairs minister of the Chechen Republic, temporarily located in London. After the British court ruling concerning my illegal persecution by the Russian authorities, the British authorities offered me political asylum, and I am currently living and working in Britain.
R: If possible, give the exact address of your office here in London.
AZ: I would rather not say.
R: Are you an executive, a shareholder, or other kind of businessman in this country?
AZ: No.
R: That includes, naturally, any joint ventures in England as well as abroad.
AZ: No.
R: Did your activities at any point include the spreading of harmful or poisonous materials or substances, including polonium-210?
AZ: No, I had never had any contact [with such substances] until the death of Alexander Litvinenko. After his death, it was established that traces of polonium had been found in my car, and it was investigated by Scotland Yard. Precisely the back seat where Alexander Litvinenko was sitting on that unfortunate day. That was the first time in my whole life that I encountered polonium-210.
R: When, where, and under what circumstances did you become acquainted with Alexander Litvinenko?
AZ: I first heard of Alexander Litvinenko in 1996, in April. On April 22, the first president of the Chechen Republic, Djokhar Dudayev, was killed on the orders of the Russian high command. On May 25, 1996, his widow, the wife of Djokhar Dudayev, decided to leave Russia and go to Turkey. She was detained by the Russian authorities and placed under investigation. As a consequence, from the 25th to the 28th she was in the hands of the Russian special forces. On the 28th, during a meeting in the Kremlin, Russian President Yeltsin, Boris Nikolayevich, gave us his word and promised that he would free her. He kept his word, she was released, and I met with her, with Alla, in the Chechen Republic, and she told me about a young officer who had interrogated her under the name Alexander Volkov, and it later emerged that that had been Alexander Litvinenko.
Then the second time, in 1998, I saw Alexander Litvinenko on television, when he and a group of other FSB officers made a public statement that the leadership of the FSB had created an office for the murder of people who were inconvenient for the authorities. And they made a public statement that the first order they received was to murder Boris Berezovsky, the secretary of the Russian National Security Council. After that, the third time I encountered Alexander Litvinenko was already after 1999, when the apartment buildings were blown up. Alexander Litvinenko made another public statement - he describes it in his book – saying that these buildings were blown up with the participation of the Russian special forces.
After the unsuccessful attempt to blow up an apartment building Ryazan, his arguments were very convincing, and he wrote a book about these explosions for us, for the Chechen leadership, which was already mired in the second war. It was very important, because officially the Russian leadership announced the beginning of the second war with the explosions of the buildings in Volgodonsk, Buinaksk. And in the spring of 2002 I met with Alexander Litvinenko here, in London, and after that we kept in constant contact and cooperated together. I was also the representative of the government commission for the investigation of war crimes committed on the territory of Chechnya by the Russian occupying troops. And Alexander Litvinenko was inducted by me into that commission. And we worked very productively with Sasha; he helped us very much.
He possessed an enormous amount of information. In fact, with the help of Alexander Litvinenko we identified the people directly in charge of the operations in the Chechen Republic. These operations and the crimes committed by the Russian penal organs in the territory of Chechnya were classified by international human rights organizations as crimes against humanity. And of course, Sasha's work on that commission was simply indispensable. And he also worked in our information agencies. He published articles, lists of Russian soldiers and leaders of the Russian military's special forces who were involved in these crimes. Practically right up to the last days of his life we were working in exactly that direction.
R: What kind of relationship linked you to Alexander Litvinenko before his death?
AZ: There was a working relationship, that I talked about before, and a personal friendly relationship. He was a guest in my home, he was a favorite of my grandchildren, and all of the members of my family loved and respected him and valued him very much.
R: Maybe you already answered this question, but I should ask it again. Did you have any kind of business relationship with Alexander Litvinenko?
AZ: No. Except for those that I enumerated above, I had no other business relationship with him, if what we're talking about is commercial business.
R: When, where, and under what circumstances did you meet with Alexander Litvinenko in October and November 2006?
AZ: In October, I met regularly with Alexander, I can't say whether at home, at work, around town. If the day in question is November 1, the day of Alexander Litvinenko's poisoning, that day I picked him up in town. I was in town after lunch, we talked on the phone and after lunch we went home. We came home together, I dropped him off at home, and drove off, and that was all. On the 2nd, he was supposed to come over in the evening, but that evening he never arrived.
On the 2nd, I had things to do in town in the morning, I was busy during the day and the evening. That night, as I was going to bed, it was somewhere around midnight when I got home, my wife told me that Alexander Litivinenko was feeling poorly, that Marina had said to her that he was feeling poorly. On the 3rd, I already knew that Sasha had been poisoned, that an ambulance had come, and that the second time [the ambulance came] in the evening they had taken him to the hospital. When they picked him up, I say him, we lived across from each other. I understood that Sasha was seriously ill, and Marina went with the ambulance to the hospital. We agreed that she would call me and tell me the address where he had been taken, and that I would then come to the hospital. But Marina didn't call, she came home in the evening, and said that anyway they weren't letting anyone see him today, that the doctors had diagnosed poisoning. As they expressed it, the first conclusion was food poisoning. On November 4, I visited him in Barnett Hospital and basically since the 4th I was with him every day in the hospital until the end of his life.
R: I want to return to the period of October-November. I have questions that might be difficult for you. What issues did you discuss in that period, when you were meeting with Litvinenko?
AZ: On November 1, when he called me, I was attending my English class. Sasha told me that today he would be receiving information about who was behind the murder of Anna Politkovskaya. You know, after the seventh of October, when Anna Politkovskaya was killed it was just a shock for us, because she was a very close and good friend of ours. We had met with her exactly a month before her death. And after her death Sasha attempted to use all his contacts and ties in the Russian security agencies.
Basically all of this period, the month of October, after the death of Anna Politkovskaya, all of our activities consisted of work, of attempts to find out who had killed and who had put out a contract on Anna Politkovskaya. And after the first [of November], after that phone call, I was in town, and we talked on the phone, and when we went back home together on November 1st, Sasha had some kind of papers with him that he had gotten, according to him, from Mario Scaramella. And in these papers was supposedly one of the possible versions of the murder of Anna Politkovskaya. I doubted that version from the very beginning. I told Sasha that. Later I figured out that that was really, in my opinion, the reason for the meeting with Sasha. There was nothing serious in those documents. As it later emerged, a whole chain of people was involved in the murder, the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko. And that evening, already on the second day, we discussed these issues. And after the 4th, when I was in the hospital at Sasha's bedside, we were already discussing who was behind the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko.
Personally neither I nor Sasha himself had any doubts already by the 4th that he had really been poisoned. The first version, while I still didn't know that Sasha had meet with Lugovoi and Kovtun in addition to Scaramella, I thought that only Scaramella could have been involved in the poisoning. But once I learned that on that day he had also met with Lugovoi, Kovtun, and yet another person, I had no doubt, and neither did he, that it was these people who had poisoned Alexander Litvinenko. And we discussed the question of how and when preparations for the operation to murder Litvinenko had begun. Of course, we didn't imagine especially in the first days that Sasha would die. Of course, no one could had known that he had been poisoned with polonium-210. Any other heavy metal, we think, and the doctors could have saved him.
R: Ahmed, I want to talk again about the same period: October, the beginning of November, and your meetings with Alexander Litvinenko. During your meetings, before and after, did you exchange any kind of documents?
AZ: Those papers that I was talking about, that Scaramella gave [to Litvinenko], in the car Sasha gave them to one of my assistants. And right there as we were driving he read them. They were in English. My assistant read them aloud. But these documents remained with Sasha, neither I nor my assistant took them. And I didn't see any other documents, we didn't exchange any documents.
R: Did you have any conflicts or disagreements with Alexander Litvinenko?
AZ: No, none.
R: Do you know anything about what Alexander Litvinenko was doing after he left Russia?
AZ: I had concrete knowledge of what he was working on with me on this commission concerning Chechnya. He talked about other things if he considered it necessary. If you ask specifically about what you're interested in, I will answer.
R: Next question. What do you know or what can you tell us about that, maybe, you think, you want to say something else.
AZ: About what?
R: This is regarding to work he was doing after he left Russia.
AZ: I said what I know for certain that he was doing. Other things, I simply don't know. I know that he worked for Boris Berezovsky.
R: Was Alexander Litvinenko a member, executive, [or] shareholder in any organization, enterprise in England?
AZ: I really don't know.
R: Do you know the addresses and names of his business partners and friends and colleagues?
AZ: No, I do not.
R: Do you know where Alexander Litvinenko served before he left for England?
AZ: I do.
R: What do you know about that?
AZ: That he was an FSB officer.
R: How do you know that?
AZ: I already talked about that earlier, but I can repeat it.
R: If you are satisfied with what you said…
AZ: With what I said? I think that it was sufficient.
R: Did the activities of Alexander Litvinenko include the spreading or use of radioactive materials, including polonium-210?
AZ: No.
R: We are going to move on to questions about other people, Lugovoi and Kovtun. Do you know them?
AZ: I know one of them, Lugovoi. I met him once, and Alexander Litvinenko reminded me of that when I was [with him] in the hospital. When Sasha told me that he had met with Lugovoi and with Kovtun, I asked who they are. Sasha said to me, "you know one of them – Lugovoi, you met him at Boris Berezovsky's birthday party, we sat at the same table." And when I saw his press conference, photographs [of him], on television, I recognized him, I had seen him once.
R: There are a few more questions regarding Lugovoi and Kovtun. We're going to take a break, and then we'll continue.
Cassette No. 2
Detective Rose (R): The time is 11:44, today is March 30. The continuation of the interview with Ahmed Zakayev. Ahmed, I'm reminding you that you are here voluntarily, and you can leave at any time. We were talking about Lugovoi, were we not? Do you have business or entrepreneurial ties with Lugovoi?
Ahmed Zakayev (AZ): No.
R: Did you meet with him in October-November 2006?
AZ: No.
R: What kind of relationship did Alexander Litvinenko have with Lugovoi and Kovtun?
AZ: I don't know.
R: Do you know what meetings Litvinenko had with Lugovoi and Kovtun in October-November 2006?
AZ: I know from Alexander Litvinenko that there were some.
R: What do you know about these meetings?
AZ: I know what Sasha said, that on the 1st Lugovoi, Kovtun, and another person who was with them, that they poisoned him.
R: Do you know Elena Tregubova?
AZ: No, I've just read [about her]. Sorry, I met her at a party at Boris Berezovsky's two years ago.
R: One of these questions, incidentally, concerns when, where, and under what circumstances you met.
AZ: I answered.
R: What did you discuss at that meeting?
AZ: She said that she had given her book to a fellow to give to me, and she asked whether I had received it. We talked about the book.
R: Do you know Boris Berezovsky?
AZ: Yes.
R: What kind of relationship do you have with him?
AZ: Friendly.
R: Do you have a business relationship or a joint-venture relationship?
AZ: No.
R: Do you know Boris Berezovsky's home and work addresses in London?
AZ: I do.
R: Could you give us these addresses?
AZ: No.
R: When was the last time you met with him?
AZ: Today.
R: What did you discuss?
AZ: That we were going to a meeting with the police to discuss issues surrounding the death of Alexander Litvinenko.
R: Was Boris Berezovsky acquainted with Alexander Litvinenko?
AZ: Yes.
R: When, where, and under what circumstances did they meet?
AZ: I don't know that, but I know that they were very close friends and allies.
R: What kind of relationship did they have before the death of Alexander Litvinenko?
AZ: Friendly.
R: Did they have a business relationship?
AZ: I don't know.
R: Did Boris Berezovsky meet with Alexander Litvinenko in October-November 2006, and under what circumstances?
AZ: I think they did [meet each other], but I don't know under what circumstances.
R: To whom did the place where Alexander Litvinenko was living belong?
AZ: I don’t know. I didn't discuss that issue with him.
R: Who paid for that apartment, and who is paying [for it] right now?
AZ: Yes, now I know that it's Boris Berezovsky. But I didn't know that before the death of Alexander Litvinenko. We didn't discuss it.
Is Boris Berezovsky acquainted with Lugovoi and Kovtun?
AZ: I think with Lugovoi, yes, because I met him at [Boris Berezovsky's] birthday party.
R: Do you know where, when, and under what circumstances Boris Berezovsky became acquainted with Lugovoi?
AZ: I don't know.
R: Did they have business relations?
AZ: I don't know.
R: We're talking about Lugovoi and Kovtun. Did they have joint or separate meetings with Boris Berezovsky during the period October-November 2006?
AZ: I know that they did. Lugovoi had meetings with Boris. I know that from what Boris said. That was already after the death of Alexander Litvinenko.
R: Do you know under what circumstances this meeting took place?
AZ: No.
R: Do you know whether Lugovoi and Berezovsky discussed issues tied to Elena Tregubova?
AZ: No, I don't know.
R: We're moving on to Scaramella. Are you acquainted with him?
AZ: No.
R: Do you know Scaramella's place of work and residence?
AZ: Only from the press.
R: Could you name these places for us?
AZ: No.
R: Was Alexander Litvinenko acquainted with Mario Scaramella?
AZ: Yes.
R: How long did they know each other?
AZ: I think for about a year, more than a year.
R: Did they have business interests in common?
AZ: I know that they had a relationship, but I don't know what kind.
R: Do you know whether they met in October-November 2006?
AZ: I know for certain that they met on November 1 in London.
R: Under what circumstances did this meeting take place?
AZ: On Mario Scaramella's initiative. Mario Scaramella handed over those documents that I was talking about, that contained the version of the murder of Anna Politkovskaya.
R: How do you know about this meeting?
AZ: Sasha told me about it on November 1, when we were driving home from town.
R: We're going to move from Mario Scaramella to another question. Do you know anyone from Eronis?
AZ: No.
R: Was Alexander Litvinenko linked to the activities of Eronis?
AZ: I don't know.
R: Do you know anyone from the company Risk Management?
AZ: No.
R: Did Alexander Litvinenko have any ties to that company?
AZ: Is that a security company? I think so, that he had a relationship with it. We talked about that only after his poisoning.
R: How was Alexander Litvinenko tied to Risk Management?
AZ: I don't know.
R: Did Alexander Litvinenko know anyone from Risk Management?
AZ: I think he did.
R: Do you know names?
AZ: No.
R: Do you know anyone from the Russian company Gazprom?
AZ: I know Miller, I know Chernomyrdin.
R: How long have you known these people?
AZ: I've known Chernomyrdin for 15 years. Miller I know from afar, from television. I've never met him. Since they appointed him, removed Vyakhirev and appointed Miller, it's been probably about five years.
R: What ties do you have to these people?
AZ: None at all.
R: Was Alexander Litvinenko tied to the activities of the company Gazprom?
AZ: In my opinion, no.
R: Did he know anyone from there?
AZ: I don't know.
R: Did Alexander Litvinenko have acquaintances in Spain?
AZ: Yes.
R: Among these people, was there a person named George or Jorge?
AZ: I don't know.
R: What do you know about a person by the name of Nevzlin, who lives in Israel?
AZ: I know that he is one of the executives of Yukos, that he is being pursued by Russian prosecutors, that he is one of the partners of Mikhail Khodorkovsky, who is sitting in jail, I know that he is currently annoying the Russian authorities very much.
R: Are you acquainted with Nevzlin?
AZ: Yes, I've met him.
R: Could you give us his address and details of how to get in touch with him?
AZ: No.
R: When did you become acquainted with him?
AZ: About a year and a half or two years ago.
R: What kind of relationship do you have with him?
AZ: None.
R: When did you meet him most recently?
AZ: The first and the last time was at Boris's. I've only met him once.
R: Under what circumstances did the meeting take place, and what was discussed?
AZ: We talked about general things. It was at some party in London. I don't remember exactly what it was. Boris introduced us. Nevzlin knew me from television, and Boris introduced me to him.
R: Was Alexander Litvinenko acquainted with Nevzlin?
AZ: I think so, yes.
R: Do you know how long they had known each other?
AZ: No.
R: Do you know what kind of relationship they had?
AZ: No.
R: Any kind of business relationship?
AZ: I don't know.
R: When and under what circumstances did they meet for the last time?
AZ: I don't know.
R: What do you know about a person by the name of Yury Shvets?
AZ: He came to my house, I met him at home once. He came with Alexander Litvinenko and with Mikhail…what's his name…can I ask if you remember? That Ukrainian who recorded Kuchma. Mikola? I forgot his name. Sasha, Mikola, and Yury Shvets came to see me at my house.
R: With regard to Yury Shvets – were you acquainted?
AZ: Acquainted, but we didn't have any relationship.
R: Could you give his address and how to get in touch with him?
AZ: No.
R: You're saying that you met with him only once.
AZ: Yes.
R: What did you discuss during that meeting?
AZ: He talked about Putin, about their years in school. They apparently studied together and were acquainted with each other. So [we talked] about the Soviet past.
R: When was that meeting?
AZ: In 2005, I think. I know it was during the period of the Orange Revolution in Ukraine. 2004 or 2005? I don't remember.
R: Was Alexander Litvinenko acquainted with Shvets?
AZ: Yes.
R: How long had they known each other?
AZ: I don't know for how long, but they knew each other.
R: What kind of relationship did they have?
AZ: They had some kind of relationship, they were in constant contact with each other. What kind [of relationship], I don't know.
R: When and where did they meet for the last time?
AZ: I don't know.
R: What were their business interests?
AZ: I don't know.
R: Do you know of a person by the name of Yury Felshtinsky?
AZ: I know that he was the coauthor of Litvinenko's book, "The FSB Blows Up Russia."
R: Are you acquainted with him?
AZ: Yes.
R: Could you give [us] his address and contact information?
AZ: No.
R: When did you become acquainted with him?
AZ: Almost at the same time, in 2002, as with Sasha.
R: What kind of relationship do you have with him?
AZ: Friendly.
R: When did you meet him for the most recent time?
AZ: I don't remember. A long time ago.
R: Under what circumstances did that meeting take place?
AZ: The first meeting?
R: No, the last one.
AZ: We met in town by accident.
R: And what did you discuss at that last meeting?
AZ: Health, how everyone was.
R: Was Alexander Litvinenko acquainted with Yury Felshtinsky?
AZ: Yes.
R: How long did they know each other?
AZ: I don't know.
R: What kind of relationship did they have?
AZ: They were coauthors of a book, and I think that they had a friendly relationship.
R: If they had some kind of business relationship, what would it have included?
AZ: They co-wrote the book "The FSB Blows Up Russia."
R: When did they meet for the last time?
AZ: I don't know.
R: What do you know about a person by the name of Tim Reilly?
AZ: I don't know anything [about him].
R: Was Alexander Litvinenko acquainted with Tim Reilly?
AZ: I don't know.
R: What do you know about a person named Daniel, an employee at Risk Management?
AZ: Nothing.
R: Alexander Litvinenko was linked to him.
AZ: Yes, I know from what Sasha said.
R: How long did they know each other?
AZ: I don't know.
R: What kind of relationship did they have?
AZ: I don't know.
R: If they had a business relationship?
AZ: I know that they had some kind of relationship, but I don't know what kind.
R: When did Alexander Litvinenko and Daniel meet for the last time?
AZ: I don't know.
R: What do you know about a person by the name of Alexander Shadrin and his relationship with the companies Continental Petroleum and Ekho Tri?
AZ: Absolutely nothing. And I don't know Shadrin.
R: Was Alexander Litvinenko acquainted with Shadrin?
AZ: I don't know.
R: What do you know about people named Alexei Valuyev and Vladimir Valuyev?
AZ: I don't know anything [about them].
R: Was Alexander Litvinenko acquainted with them?
AZ: I don't know.
R: What do you know about a person by the name of Arkady Shalvovich Patarkatsishvili?
AZ: I know him.
R: Could you give [us] all the details about him, his place of residence?
AZ: No.
R: When did you become acquainted with him?
AZ: In 1997.
R: What kind of relationship do you have with him?
AZ: None, really. We know each other, that's all.
R: When did you meet with him most recently?
AZ: I don't remember. A long time ago.
R: What did you discuss during that last meeting?
AZ: I don't remember.
R: Was Alexander Litvinenko acquainted with him?
AZ: Yes.
R: For how long?
AZ: I don't know.
R: What kind of relationship did they have?
AZ: I don't know.
R: If they had a business relationship, what would it have included?
AZ: I have absolutely no idea.
R: When and where did they meet for the last time?
AZ: I don't know.
R: What do you know about Yegor Shupp?
AZ: Is that Boris's son-in-law? Yegor? If we're talking about Boris's son-in-law, I know him. I don't know his last name.
R: Was Alexander Litvinenko acquainted with Yegor Shupp?
AZ: I don't know.
R: What do you know about Ruslan Fomichev?
AZ: I don't know.
R: You're not acquainted with him.
AZ: I know one Ruslan, I just have a problem with surnames. If we're talking about the one who worked for Boris, I know him. I have met him and seen him.
R: We're going to speak as though he's the one you know. Can you give his address and contact details?
AZ: No.
R: When did you become acquainted with him?
AZ: I know that he works for Boris. I saw him in the office. I have no relationship whatsoever with him, we greeted each other, and that's it.
R: Did Alexander Litvinenko know Ruslan Fomichev?
AZ: I think so, yes.
R: What was the relationship between them?
AZ: I don't know.
R: If they have a business relationship, what kind would it have been?
AZ: I don't know.
R: When and where did they meet for the last time?
AZ: I don't know.
R: What do you know about Pereventseva and Khomyakova?
AZ: I don't know.
R: You're not acquainted with them?
AZ: No.
R: Was Alexander Litvinenko acquainted with them?
AZ: I don't know.
R: What do you know about Vladimir Voronov?
AZ: I know that there is someone by that name. I met him in Boris Berezovsky's office. We became acquainted there, we've met a few times. I have no relationship with him, except as an acquaintance.
R: Do you know what kind of relation Voronov had to the activities of Continental Petroleum?
AZ: I don't know.
R: Could you give Voronov's contact details?
AZ: No.
R: What kind of relationship do you have with Vladimir Voronov?
AZ: None. I know that he worked for Gorbachev as a translator.
R: When and where did you meet most recently?
AZ: I don't remember.
R: Do you remember what you discussed at that meeting?
AZ: No.
R: Was Alexander Litvinenko acquainted with him?
AZ: I think so, yes.
R: How long did they know each other?
AZ: I don't know.
R: What kind of relationship did they have?
AZ: I don't know.
R: If they did have a business relationship, what would it have involved?
AZ: I don't know.
R: When did they meet for the last time?
AZ: I don't know.
R: It's time to change the roll. It's now 12:20.
Cassette No. 3
Detective Rhodes (R): It is now 12:33. We are in the same room. I remind you that you are here of your own will and are not required to answer any questions and may leave at any time. We discussed names. The last was Voronov. Now the question is whether you know a person by the name of Sokolenko?
Akhmed Zakaev (AZ): No.
R: Can you provides any details about Sokolenko?
AZ: No.
R: Was Alexander Litvinenko acquainted with Sokolenko?
AZ: I don't know.
R: That is everyone on my list. Now we will discuss dates last year and places you were located. I understand that we already discussed some of it. If you do not want to discuss something or think you already answered those questions, say so. First question: Akhmed, where were you on October 30, 2006?
AZ: Home, in London. I was at home.
R: And on November 1,2 and 3, 2006?
AZ: Home in London.
R: Where was Alexander Litvinenko at that time?
AZ: I already talked about that.
R: Tell us everything you know about the people Alexander Litvinenko met with between October 31 and November 3.
AZ: I already talked about that.
R: About the things Alexander Litvinenko talked about with the people. What do you know and when did you find out?
AZ: I found out about it, that he met with Mario Scaramella, and what they talked about I found out on the first, we when were traveling together. About Lugovoi and Kovtun, who met with him on the first, and that they were, in his words, the people who poisoned him, I found out at Barnet Hospital on November 4 and 5.
R: Do you know if Alexander Litvinenko suffered from any diseases? If so, what diseases did he suffer from?
AZ: As far as I know, he was not sick and was physically strong and healthy.
R: Did Alexander Litvinenko feel well on October 30 and 31 and November 1, 2 and 4?
AZ: On the 30th and 31st, he felt well, but from the night of the first until he died he felt sick and poisoned.
R: Did Alexander Litvinenko discuss the state of his health with you? When and where did those conversations occur?
AZ: I the hospital. I was with him all the time after the fourth. We discussed his condition and talk about it.
R: Did you notice any changes in his behavior in that period?
AZ: Yes. He became worse every day. He was very sick. On the tenth day of his poisoning, his hair began to fall out. On the 23rd, he died. On the 22nd, his heart stopped for the first time, but the doctors saved him. On the 23rd, while we where going to the hospital, the doctors called and we came back from the house with his wife to the hospital, and he was already dead.
R: Do you know when Alexander Litvinenko started to complain about the deteriorating condition of his health?
AZ: On the night of November 1.
R: When did you find out?
AZ: I found out on the second from my wife.
R: How was the deterioration of his health expressed?
AZ: He had continual nausea. He couldn't eat anything and the situation got worse every day.
R: How did that affect his behavior?
AZ: He was in his right mind to the last minute. He stopped speaking on the 22nd, only November 22. Until then he was in his absolutely right mind, he worked, he answered questions.
R: Did Alexander Litvinenko receive treatment, and if so with what medicines?
AZ: I don't know, he was in the hospital.
R: Do you know what hospitals Alexander Litvinenko was treated in in November 2006?
AZ: From the 3rd to the 15th, he was in Barnet Hospital. After the 15th or 16th, he was in University College Hospital in London.
R: What was the diagnosis?
AZ: The first thing the doctors at Barnet Hospital diagnosed was food poisoning. About ten days later, they made the diagnosis of thallium poisoning. They began to give him antidotes and placed him under police protection and transferred him to University College Hospital. Then on the night of the 23rd, after his death, they told us that he had been poisoned with polonium-210. The night of the 23rd going onto the 24th.
R: Do you know why the diagnosis changed?
AZ: The doctors tried to establish what happened to him, why his symptoms were not confirmed by others. I only know how that process happened, because I was close to him. As far as I know, they found polonium in urine that they took from Alexander Litvinenko three hours after his death. The contractors and executors of that monstrous crime were counting on them not to make an exact diagnosis. The Russian special services use exactly those poisons and that type of method against Chechens on the territory of the Chechen Republic as well as places of internment on the territory of Russia. We have many confirmations, proofs and examples.
R: From whom did you find out the diagnosis and when?
AZ: I found out about it directly from British authorities. I think it was representatives of your structure at night at the home of Alexander Litvinenko, where I was with the wife and father of Alexander Litvinenko. And they told us that polonium-210 had been discovered and that there was no chance that he would have survived.
R: Did he leave the hospital after entering it in November 2006?
AZ: No. They didn't give us his body right away. It was said they needed to make examinations and an investigation. The body was handed over for burial in a special sarcophagus that was closed. And that's how he was buried.
R: Do you know whom Alexander Litvinenko met with in the hospital?
AZ: I know, because I was in the hospital practically all the time.
R: What did Alexander Litvinenko say abut the cause of his illness?
AZ: He said he was absolutely sure he was poisoned on the personal order of Russian President Putin and carried out by Lugovoi, Kovtun and a third person who was with them at the Millennium Hotel.
R: Who did he say that to about his illness?
AZ: He spoke to me about it, to his wife and father and Boris Berezovsky. And I also know that he wrote a deathbed letter in the presence of his lawyer. When he was transferred to University College Hospital, he accepted that he was going to die. That was when the doctors and experts said the thallium might be radioactive. When the doctors understood and told him that a bone marrow transplant might be necessary, because it was completely destroyed, I know that after that composed his deathbed letter, which was read after his death. When he talked about how he might die, no one had suggested polonium-210 yet, of course. Therefore, there was still hope that he might survive, because Sasha was a very healthy guy. He didn't smoke, didn't drink, he ran 10 or 11 km. every day, he had a healthy heart. I think it was his physical health that allowed the British doctors to make an exact diagnosis. If he had died a week earlier, no one would have made an exact diagnosis.
R: Did Alexander Litvinenko leave nay letters of notes about his illness?
AZ: Except for the letter that was read and that I mentioned already, I don't know.
R: Whom did he talk to about the circumstances under which he may have come into contact with polonium-210?
AZ: The thing is that Sasha didn't talk about polonium at all, because he didn't know about it. He talked about being poisoned, with me, his wife Marina, he told his father Valter, Boris Berezovsky what circumstances and who poisoned him.
R: In relation to who was responsible for his poisoning, in his own words. I understand we already talked about this. What are the names of those people?
AZ: Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, president of Russia. Director of the FSB Nikolay Patrushev, and the direct implementers of their instructions, they were Lugovoi, Kovtun and a third person who was with them. Those were his words, his conviction.
R: What were Alexander Litvinenko's relations with those people?
AZ: Under Putin, when he became director of the FSB, Alexander Litvinenko was arrested and put in prison. Then, when Putin became president of Russia, Sasha was forced to flee that country. Sasha wrote Putin very forthright articles. Sasha wrote about Putin and his rise, his career. Sasha accused him of many crimes, committed by him before he came to power in the Kremlin and during his presidency. Sasha was also in contact with Kalugin, who knew Nikolay Patrushev directly and very well. And Sasha also wrote exposes about Patrushev. Sasha talked about how a political assassination division was restored under Putin. Alexander Litvinenko maintained good contacts with his former colleagues in the FSB. They were continually giving him information.
The FSB laboratory for preparing poisons was closed by order of President Yeltsin, but that laboratory was reopened in 2002 under Putin. In 1995, Yeltsin closed that laboratory with his order, and Putin opened it in 2002. After the poisoning of Yushchenko, the Ukrainian president, Sasha began to work very actively in that area and Sasha not only wrote all about it in his books. He published his articles, he was published in Chechenpress. And [several words are missing] she told Sasha that they asked her to work with the FSB on the shooting range. They have a space where they hold marksmanship training. And there were two targets there. One target was Shamil Basaev, and the other was Alexander Litvinenko. They asked her, “Who do you want to shoot at? They are both enemies of the Russian state.” So Sasha had no illusions about who wanted him dead.
R: Maybe you already answered this question. What was Alexander Litvinenko's opinion about the people who ordered and carried out his poisoning?
AZ: I already talked about that.
R: In relation to his opinion about those people, how do you know it?
AZ: From him.
R: What do you know about the causes of Alexander Litvinenko's death, and how did you find them out?
AZ: I already talked about that.
R: At the time of his death, do you know what personal assets or real estate he had?
AZ: No.
R: Where does Alexander Litvinenko keep his property, including bank accounts and account numbers?
AZ: I don't know.
R: Who inherited his property after his death?
AZ: I don't know. His wife and son, I think they did.
R: Do you know who might have a right to that property?
AZ: I think his son and wife who are here in London. I also know that he had a family in Moscow. His former wife and two children. I met them here at the funeral. Sasha's daughter came a few times while he was still alive.
R: What do you know about the diseases of Kovtun and Lugovoi?
AZ: Only general things, what was in the Internet and press.
R: The last question. Do you want to add anything useful to the investigation?
AZ: The only thing I want to say is that I am prepared to cooperate with the English police and with the Russian police and to do everything that I can and to help establish the truth and bring the people who killed my friend to justice.
R: Before stopping the recording, I want to speak with the prosecutor's representative. You will have the opportunity to ask questions later. I have not asked all the questions that might relate to what Akhmed said. Are there any question that you would like me to ask now?
Andrey Mayorov (AM): No. Not in this case. No questions were asked that a negative answer was given to the last of. If the answerer does not know any of the people named in the question, then of course he cannot talk about relations and so on and other questions stemming from it.
R: I will turn off the recording now. Does anyone want to say anything else?
AM: I would like to ask the answerer a question, if it is possible.
R: Not now. That will be possible later.
AM: Will it be recorded?
R: Everything will be the same as now.
AM: Understood.
R: It is now 1:16. I am turning off the recording.
Cassette No. 4
Detective Rhodes (R): This interview is being recorded. It is now 1:30. We are in a special room for conversations in the London central police precinct. I am holding a conversation with a person by the name of…
Akhmed Zakaev (AZ): Akhmed Zakaev.
R: Thank you. We also have a translator, Mr. Funk, and a representative of the Russian authorities. Present yourself, please.
Andrey Mayorov (AM): Andrey Mayorov, deputy chief of the department for the investigation of particularly important cases, Prosecutor General's Office of Russia.
R: Thank you. We gathered here today at 11:00 and began to ask questions on the request of the Russian prosecutor. Those questions were taken from a letter with the request that we received in the team to combat terrorism from the Russian prosecutor. After answers were received to all those questions, new questions were raised that the representative of the Russian prosecutor would like to ask. Since completing the first part of the conversation, we have determined what questions will be asked. I ask you, sir, these questions that I am about to ask, are they the questions they we discussed?
AM: Yes.
R: Akhmed, I should remind you that you are here as a witness, by your own desire, and you can leave at any moment. You have the right to have a lawyer present. You also have the right to refuse to answer any question. Are you satisfied with your status here?
AZ: Yes.
R: Then we will move on to the questions. First question: When were you in contact with polonium-210?
AZ: I didn't know. As became clear later, on the first, after the poisoning, I gave Alexander Litvinenko a ride in my car. And when it was established after the death of Alexander Litvinenko that he died as a result of poisoning by polonium-210, The English police, who were carrying out the investigation of that crime, conducted tests for the presence of polonium-210 and the dosage in all the places where Alexander Litvinenko was after the first. Knowing that I gave him a ride home on the first, the police checked my car for the presence of the radioactive substance. Trcaes of polonium-210 were found in my car in exactly the place where Alexander Litvinenko sat in the bask seat. And when I talked about that unfortunate day when I came into contact with the radioactive substance, I had November 1 in mind, when I gave Alexander Litvinenko a ride home in my car.
R: Did Alexander Litvinenko ever confirm that he was Volkov?
AZ: Yes. In 2002, when we were already acquainted in person, we met and continued to associate, he confirmed the information that he, Alexander Litvinenko, used Volkov's identification and conducted the interrogation of Alla Dudaeva.
R: Did Alla Dudaeva talk about Litvinenko, about his personality and character?
AZ: Yes, she did. She had a very good reaction to Alexander Litvinenko. She was struck that such intelligent, pleasant people work in that frightening organization called the KGB who are capable of feeling another person's pain. And she personally told me that, in her opinion, Alexander Litvinenko was in that organization by accident.
R: Under what circumstances did you meet with Alexander Litvinenko?
AZ: I know the question that was asked in Russian, so I will respond to it. In the last conversation, I spoke about our relations, but I did not specify the first time and since when I know Alexander Litvinenko. In connection with that, this question came up. I knew about Alexander Litvinenko since 1996, when our services established the identity of Volkov, who interrogated Alla Dudaeva when she was being held. At a session of the state defense committee, the head of the service said that the person using the name of Volkov who questioned Alla Dudaeva between May 25 and 28, 2996, was Alexander Litvinenko. From that time on, I knew the name Litvinenko and knew about him. I already told the rest. I met with him personally in London in 2002.
R: Did Alexander Litvinenko have experience with poisonous or radioactive substances?
AZ: I already talked about that and I can repeat it: I don't know.
R: Did Alexander Litvinenko tell you himself that Lugovoi and Kovtun poisoned him, or it that your assumption?
AZ: No. He told me that himself when I visited him in the hospital.
R: Did he say how the poisoning was carried out and how he came to that conclusion?
AZ: Yes, he told me about that. It happened on November 1 in the bar of the Millennium Hotel, where he met with Lugovoi, Kovtun and a third person whose name he didn't know, first or last. When he arrived and came up to their table, they were sitting and drinking. They offered him a drink. I am saying what Sasha told me and I am repeating his words. Sasha said, “They knew I don't drink.” But they offered him various drinks several times.
When he refused, they held out a cup of tea, “Won't you at least drink tea with us?” When I asked whether the tea was already poured out in a cup and stood on the table or they poured it in front of him, Sasha replied that the tea had already been poured. And he drank it in two or three swallows. From that moment on, he had an unpleasant sensation, as though they had poisoned him. And when he was at home at night… evening… and he got sick for the first time, and threw up for the first time, he told Marina, his wife, immediately, “Marina, Yura and the guys poisoned I met with poisoned me with tea.” He asked her to bring him margantsovka (permanganate of potash), and he drank the margantsovka and many liters of water. That is a folk remedy, first aid and urgent care to cleanse out poisoning. Sasha told me all about it when he was in the hospital.
R: In the period from October 30 through November, what documents did Berezovsky and Litvinenko exchange?
AZ: I already answered that I don't know.
R: Did Boris Berezovsky say anything about his relations with Lugovoi and did they have any relations?
AZ: Yes. When Sasha had been transferred from Barnet Hospital to University College Hospital and it was already obvious that he had been poisoned, Sasha spoke to Boris about Lugovoi and what he thought he had done. He spoke about Yury Lugovoi. After that, I found out in a conversation with Boris that he had been in his office and he assigned him to handle security for his daughter who is in Russia. That he came to his office and they discussed organizing a security service for his daughter who is in Russia. Based on that, I think they had business and personal contacts.
R: What are the activities of the company Risk Management?
AZ: I already answered that I don't know what they do. The word “security,” which I mentioned in the last answer, was more a question that I wanted to ask you, because I absolutely don't know about the activity of that organization.
R: When you visited Shvets at home, who was the initiator of that meeting? Did he come to you on his own?
AZ: I don't think so, because he basically didn't know where I lived. Sasha Litvinenko asked him.
R: What did Litvinenko do on October 30 and 31?
AZ: I don't know exactly what he did, but I know that he was home, he was in London, he was not away, he was here. And he was healthy.
R: And what did he do on November 1, 2 and 3?
AZ: I already answered that question.
R: When Alexander Litvinenko was in the hospital, who visited him besides you, his wife, Boris Berezovsky and his lawyer?
AZ: Members of my family, my wife and my son. Alexander Goldfarb, Andrey Nekrasov, Ival Emunsen, our Norwegian friend. Those are the people I know about. Maybe someone visited him in my absence.
R: When did it become known to you that Litvinenko was poisoned by polonium-210?
AZ: After the death of Alexander Litvinenko, on the night of the 23rd to 24th, a representative of Scotland Yard called me on the phone. It was at about 1:00 at night. And the representative of Scotland Yard told me that it was necessary to meet with us, Marina and me, that night. They spoke with my assistant over my phone. I said, “What is the need of disturbing Marina today, and everybody, because the boy was already asleep at home, why can't the meeting be put off until the morning?” The police said they couldn't postpone it. You'll understand us when you find out why we can't postpone it. And that night, after 2:00, a whole group of police came, and people with some sort of special devices. And two representatives of Scotland Yard told me, Marina and Alexander's father, who was in the kitchen of our house, that they had established that Sasha had been poisoned with polonium-210. The first time I heard about it was at 2 or 3 o'clock on the night of November 24.
R: In the previous part of the conversation, you talked about a whole chain of people who were involved in the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko. Could you name those people who are involved in that, beginning with President Putin and ending with Lugovoi and Kovtun?
AZ: I already said who I know, and in addition to them Limarev occurred to me and to everyone who is acquainted with the situation. Some Limarev who sent documents to Scaramella and thus prompted the meeting in London between Litvinenko and Scaramella to hand over documents with particularly important information for solving the murder of Anna Politkovsky. If the polonium had not been discovered, that operation and the luring of Scaramella into that operation, the murder of Litvinenko, was a cover operation. And to prove that it was Lugovoi and Kovtun, that the poisoning occurred in the Millennium cafe when Sasha met them, would be practically impossible.
I think that many more people were brought into the operation. That murder was organized when soccer was scheduled. The Russian team was playing and many fans came to England from Russia. And I think And I think that a large circle of people were active, because practically all the information that appeared in the Russian press, it was obvious that they tailed us, Russians tailed us. I will tell you how I know that. Because the information that was written in the Russian press could not have come from Alexander Litvinenko. It did not come form me, that means their was a third party that tailed us. I really never leave my car unattended. There was a time or two when I asked Sasha, when I had to go someplace, we went together and I asked him, “Stay in the car until I get back.” And the Russian press wrote about that. Because I know only people who tailed us could know that.
R: Did Alexander Litvinenko explain the motives or goals for the murder, or did you come to that conclusion yourself, including the case of the laboratory for producing poisonous substances?
AZ: Wheat I said above all comes from the words of Alexander Litvinenko. If anyone is interested in my own opinion, I can tell you it.
R: Do you have proof that the Russian special services use poisonous substances or materials?
AZ: Yes. When I say “we,” I mean mostly myself as the head and the state commission for the investigation of war crimes committed as a result of the occupation of the Chechen Republic by Russia. I also mean the Prosecutor General's Office of the Chechen Republic, which is gathering facts and proof about poisonous substances and the mass murders committed and being committed on the territory of Chechnya. And, of course, we are ready to cooperate with any side in that question. I think it would be interesting for the Russian prosecutor's office to know, and I want attention in return to the confessional statement of FSB director Patrushev that the Russian FSB resorts to using poisonous substances in its work. He made that statement in 2004 after Khattab was poisoned by a poisonous substance, that is, a letter sent to him. When asked by journalists how the Arab volunteer fighting in Chechnya was liquidated, Patrushev answered that we have our ways. Those ways were made clear in downtown London on November 1.
R: What do you know about the autopsy of Litvinenko and, if there is anything, where from?
AZ: No.
R: You said that Litvinenko was poisoned on November 1. In the previous part of the interview, you said that he began to lose his hair on November 14, and therefore he was poisoned ten days earlier. Thus, the poisoning would have taken place on November 3 or 4. So when exactly did the poisoning take place?
AZ: As I said earlier, the poisoning took place on November 1. When I said the 13th-14th,when his hair started to fall out, and I added “on the tenth day of his poisoning,” I meant that his hair began to fall out after ten days. If I misspoke the dates, it was simply a technical error in pronunciation. I can confirm again the fact of the poisoning with the words of Alexander Litvinenko and, by all evidence and grounds we have, he was poisoned on the first.
R: Thank you. Those are all the questions. Does anyone want to say anything before I turn the recorder off?
AM: No.
R: Then I'm turning off the recording.
|
|
|
